The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

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Hal
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The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

Post by Hal » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:08 pm

So....the following is based on research which is 'deeply flawed'?
The report says, “The ECOLOG-institute recommends not to exceed a precautionary standard of 0,01 W/m2 [ = 1 microwatt per square centimeter] when siting cellular telephone base stations in the proximity of dwellings, schools, kindergartens, hospitals, and similarly sensitive uses.”

In a commentary to this, Dr. Neil Cherry, a well-known EMF researcher in New Zealand, says, “The actual exposure levels at which these genetic effects are shown are about 0.5 to 1.2 microWatt/sq cm. These are not safe levels, they are just experimental levels that show that at extremely low experimental levels genotoxic responses occur — cell-by-cell. There is no safe threshold.”

In other words, the maximum level the ECOLOG-Institute recommends is already the level at which, as Dr. Cherry points out, genetic effects occur. This also happens to be about the same exposure level from a cell-phone tower with a single set of antennas, sometimes as much as 1000 feet away or more, depending on terrain, obstructions, signal strength, etc. When another telecom with the same signal strength colocates on the tower, the radiation increases."
If so, what are these fatal flaws?

I'll answer these posts later, am highly busy at the moment.....
Last edited by Hal on Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post by Jamstealer » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:34 pm

1. It's out of context
2. It is based on one opinion; Whilst being a well known researcher; Neil Cherry had a reputation of being somewhat tunnel minded in his later years; much of his research has been replicated and found to not be supportable; he made the mistake of becoming polemic and forgetting the basic tenets of hypothesis testing.
3. He makes several statements / conclusions as " fact" that are actually hypotheses that have not been proven or are non sequiturs.

Much of his work was looked at and we had to dismiss it because it was not actually replicable, or properly peer reviewed. He is oft quoted by the RF danger lobby because he has what appears to be immaculate credentials.

For instance your quote is from a paper he did on possibility genetic effects from RF; the data does not lead to the bold conclusion he states; since it actually only says that there may be evidence. The phrase the "actual level at which. ..." refers to the actual levels in the experiments; in the experiment ( which he refers to, but did not do himself) there were genetic effects in subjects, but there was not sufficient data to establish if they were random or caused by the exposure. So he made a quite " naughty" (in scientific terms) jump.
The only proper conclusion that could be drawn from that paper is that" there remains a possibility that there could be changes, but evidence is not sufficient to support the hypothesis to a sufficient degree"

It is correct to say there is no "safe" threshold; as it can never be defined in absolute terms; it can be defined in probability terms, depending on what level of probability you want; 90%? 99%? 99.99%? 99.9999%?

So yes; deeply flawed to quote that as any sort of scientific proof.


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The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

Post by Hal » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:02 pm

I obviously need to read up on this, as it's complicated, and there are vested interests at work.

Whatever the scientific consensus (if there can honestly be said to be one at all) I think it's going to be an uphill task for Enedis rolling this out.
The more informed public (the ones who can drag themselves away from TV long enough) are wary of the scientific consensus partly due to the history of tobacco, but many, including many in the medical profession, are not exactly convinced by the sanctity which clings to the efforts and image of Cancer Research.....( as cited above)

Particularly here in France, where there was a major scandal several years ago when the director of ARC, a French cancer research organisation supported by charitable contributions was found to have been skimming very large amounts for himself.

Worse, in the USA it's widely felt that Cancer Research is simply a clever idea to provide crowd-funding to pay for research to develop new drugs for patenting and sale by Big Pharma. It's suggested that they don't really want to find 'a final cure-all for cancer' as it'd ruin the business. No desire on my part to "character assassinate" Cancer Research, if such a thing is even possible, it being an institution and thereby lacking a "character" to besmirch. This is a widely held opinion....though I do have good personal friends who worked in medical research who tell horrific stories of rush launched drugs, improperly tested, and with deliberately 'massaged' research results. One in particular was so disgusted he left med research completely.

Without, as I said, having read much on Mw or RF health related issues yet, I am naturally deeply suspicious of an industry which seems to be trying to foist something they claim is 'perfectly harmless', though not properly long -term tested, (as did the tobacco industry) on a captive population, when it's absolutely not necessary, and the health issues are unproven either way.

If there's doubt, or more research is needed, I for one opt out, citing the precautionary principle.

It's more or less irrelevant for me personally, I have a watermill and can generate my own electricity, and I won't be needing a Mw linked water meter as I don't have mains water, so as far as I'm concerned it's a matter of principle.

It will be fascinating to see how this all pans out, but I have no wish to be part of this long term experiment.

As for the 18€ par month "non-compliance charge" allegedly 'to pay the meter man', apparently this is another bluff, it's NOT legally enforceable according to the avocat for the anti Linky movement.

I know we've never signed a contract on that basis...

Checking Dr Neil Cherry, I found this....

" Putting the research of all four together was very helpful for the Japanese. Ann Silk told Neil that her current research was on clusters of cases of Motor Neurone Disease in villages in England. She had gone around the villages and interviewed very many people. The only common factor she found among the villages was radio frequency radiation. Every cluster was in the vicinity of a cell tower, a radio or TV tower, or an amateur radio operator. Neil pointed out to her that there were seven studies which showed elevated motor neurone disease in electrical workers and three of these showed significant dose response relationships - that is the higher the exposure the higher the disease rate.

Neil explained to Ann that what she was finding among radio towers in England was not surprising because the biophysics shows that the ELF effects will be produced at a higher level and much stronger by microwave exposures at far lower mean exposure levels. For instance the biological effects of a cell tower, if it has the same field strength as the electric field in a home, are a billion times stronger on the body than is produced by the electric field in a home. Even if the exposure is 1000 times lower the effects are still a million times stronger. Therefore since the fields are actually about a million times weaker, the effects are still 1000 times higher, so instead of finding one or two cases of Motor Neurone Disease per 100,000 people you can find a cluster of about five people being diagnosed over a year in one village with a population of three or four hundred. That is about 15 or 16 per thousand which is 1600 per 100,000. This is 800 times higher than the normal expected rate."

Dr Cherry died shortly after this from....motor neurone disease; probably not helped by the time he'd spent getting real life measurments of mw emissions from three towers in San Francisco.

A Nobel nominee seems to be urging caution....
• Dr. Gerard Hyland, a physicist who was nominated twice for the Nobel Prize in medicine, says, "Existing safety guidelines for cell phone towers are completely inadequate … Quite justifiably, the public remains skeptical of attempts by governments and industry to reassure them that all is well, particularly given the unethical way in which they often operate symbiotically so as to promote their own vested interests."
• According to the Mount Shasta Bioregional Ecology Center, "Studies have shown that even at low levels of this radiation, there is evidence of damage to cell tissue and DNA, and it has been linked to brain tumors, cancer, suppressed immune function, depression, miscarriage, Alzheimer's disease, and numerous other serious illnesses."
• According to Dr. W. Löscher of the Institute of Pharmacology, Toxicology and Pharmacy of the Veterinary School of Hannover in Germany, dairy cows that were kept in close proximity to a TV and cell phone tower for two years had a reduction in milk production along with increased health problems and behavioral abnormalities. In an experiment, one cow with abnormal behavior was taken away from the antenna and the behavior subsided within five days. When the cow was brought back near the antenna, the symptoms returned. http://www.neilcherry.com
Last edited by Hal on Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

Post by 2cvandy » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:46 pm

DaveR wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:57 pm
2cvandy wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:48 am
I know I'm being simplistic (or maybe I'm just simple) but in our house we switch things on when we need to use them and switch them off when we're done. How can knowing how much power we're using help to reduce our bills?
This is because many home-owners DO leave things switched on or on stand-by when they don't need to, leave lights on in rooms they are not using, heat their houses to T-shirt wearing levels, run heating with windows open etc etc etc...
Ah,,, you mean RICH people? I know such people exist, though I don't actually know any,,,,,,,,,,,,
Got to say there's nothing on standby here, the only things which run continually are the fridge and freezer to keep the beer and steaks fresh, and the de-humidifier in the garage keeping my bikes dry. All totally essential I'm sure you'll agree,,,,,,,, icon_thumbup
I can see they might take notice of the smart meter until the novelty wears off (those RICH folks do love a gadget eh?) but I think they'd soon get bored of checking and go back to ignoring their consumption.
DaveR wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:57 pm
Clearly you're an exception Andy because you are already well aware of what you are using and when you are using it - and that's good. There will be many others like you for whom a meter would not change their behaviour. The meters aren't really targeted at you.
No, I didn't think they were.
Surprising though isn't it that people will happily sit at home and burn money?
I guess it's the same folk I hear about who throw away £X amount of food every week?
I'm not convinced that smart meters will have any long term effect on numpties like that, but I would guess it can't hurt to try.

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Post by DaveR » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:54 pm

Yep that's right Andy. Same people who buy things they don't need, throw things away before they're finished, drive 500 yards in a range rover to drop their kids at school, run patio heaters on summer nights, leave the heating on when they're out, pour meat fat down the drain, chuck litter out the car window etc etc etc. I spent three tiresome years running environmental policy in Surrey, the richest county in the UK, and I used to tell councillors that our main task was not so much to serve the residents but more to protect Surrey's environment from them. Possibly the most selfish, wasteful, consumption-driven population in the country. Domestic waste was running at 1.4 tonnes per household per year! Many thought that doing a spot of recycling each week was more than enough to prove that they cared about the earth whilst simultaneously burning through 10,000KWh per annum.

Engineering behaviour change in that setting is very difficult (I should know). But smart meters are useful. They appeal to 'gadgety' people who like high tech answers and 'lifestyle' solutions to the issues of the day. And I know that they work. We had a small team offering energy audits, using some of the early smart home-metering technology, and we got households saving 30-40% on their consumption and bills. As you say, often the richest were most able to afford to be wasteful, but when in some cases they could be shown a £1000 annual saving they sat up and took notice. There is a psychological effect to seeing savings made in real time compared to putative future savings. You'd be surprised what a revelation it is to some people when you demonstrate the meter, get them to turn on an electric kettle and watch the difference on the meter. It's as if electricity is out of sight out of mind and some folk just don't connect all the things they have switched on to the bill they get later.

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Post by Hal » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:09 pm

Dave,

Whatever your Surrey experience, you were it seems using some sort of 'demonstration' smart meters and showing savings to users. It sounds mighty like a sort of softening-up tactic.

There is now a great deal of evidence of domestic bills going up dramatically after fitment of the 'full-fat' smart meters.

In fact Enedis isn't even talking seriously about any savings for consumers. It didn't happen in America, Germany seems to have a lot of people who are not for accepting them, the UK seems not to exactly be inundated with folk thanking Smart meters for saving them money, they have seem to have been ripped out of homes in whole regions of the USA due to escalating health concerns and domestic fires, their replacement with the trusty analogue meters going as far back as 2011.

Why would any consumer believe they are being installed at vast expense to "save the end user money"? It's totally counter-intuitive.

I recall the Govt in UK claiming "electricity from nuclear power will be so cheap it won't be worth metering"

What a foul lie THAT was! This will be the same.
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Post by Jamstealer » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:40 pm

Hal wrote:Dave,


Why would any consumer believe they are being installed at vast expense to "save the end user money"?
Because it's true?




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Post by DaveR » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:31 pm

Hard to know what to say really after reading an accusation like that. In my own (admittedly limited, but relevant) experience smart metering had one sole objective - to enable and encourage energy saving. That was the only reason we ran the scheme. I can't comment on the microwave issue because I've never studied it but the motivation for introducing metering was not sinister or underhand. Things may have changed and maybe I'm out of touch but I'd like to see thorough primary source evidence before believing in a conspiracy. When you'd rather believe conspiracy theories than the testimony of someone who actually managed a scheme, or more importantly those who have researched the area in detail, there's nowhere much else to go with the discussion. Critical inquiry is valuable and vital but you can cross a line where you are more willing to doubt and suspect everything than to use your powers of balance and objectivity, and of course there is a whole thriving industry ready and willing to help those looking for plots and connivance. I think I'd be quite happy to have a linky meter, and if it emerges conclusively that it is only there to fleece me or fry my brain I'll deal with that then. There is such a thing as the 'precautionary principle' in environmental science, but it has many caveats and it was never designed as a tool for preventing everything 'just in case' there might be a risk involved. Risks are measurable and quantifiable and as with most things I'd rather follow the evidence.

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Post by papasmurf » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:58 am

DaveR wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:31 pm
Risks are measurable and quantifiable and as with most things I'd rather follow the evidence.
The problem with that is as history has proven sometimes a lot of people have died before a risk was known about.
I won't say where it was but an establishment now closed that was full of radio wave monitoring equipment nearly all of the workers who had worked there died of cancer. As far as I know there has never been an enquiry to ask why.

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The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

Post by guzzigui » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:54 am

I have to say that I have never considered 'smart' meters to be a conspiracy. I have worked for some very large corporations (that happen to be in the radio communications sector) and the one thing that always struck me was that the companies would always put the shareholder first. Maybe that is an obvious statement, maybe not, I think it is often forgotten.

I do believe that there is "no such thing as a free lunch" and on that basis these companies would not roll-out this technology if it did not suit THEM to do so. They will have done a very solid business case for this roll-out which will show huge improvements to the bottom line, we obviously don't get to see that so it is sold to us using all the things previously stated. Why would a company that makes money by selling electricity actually want to get it's customers to use less? Give it a couple of years, the tariff begins to creep up and we're back where we were, if not paying more more.

Do they have their customer's best interests and any potential health risks to their customers at heart? No of course not, not unless a very large number of people can demonstrably be proven to of suffered due to their technology roll-out. By 'demonstrably' I mean a full blown enquiry backed court case, leading to a successful prosecution.

I always keep in mind the drug Thalidomide or the Tobacco industry (arguably the latter was a conspiracy as we now know they knew about the 'negative' effects for years)

So for me its not a conspiracy, more that they just don't care because the bottom line comes first.

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