The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

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The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

Post by Jamstealer » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:30 pm

guzzigui wrote:
Jamstealer wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:34 pm
Microwave radiation does not cook meat; meat is cooked by heat. "Microwave cooking " is achieved by microwaves exciting molecules, thus producing the heat that causes cooking. If the microwaves do not produce sufficient excitation of the molecules, to generate " cooking heat" then cooking does not take place.
So below a certain intensity, microwaves won't produce a cooking effect.
In the same way that a conventional oven cooks at, say, 200C; but doesn't cook at 10C.
You don't get burned by your central heating at 20C; you sound if it was 200C.
So low level MW cannot be dangerous .





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It's not about the heating effect, that has been known about for years.
So what is it about?
The ionising is negligible.


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The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

Post by guzzigui » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:50 am

As I said earlier, it is about the "Non Heating Effect" of digital radio frequency emissions. This has been known about for some time but not well understood or recognised by some vested interests.

The term micro wave is misleading as it really only refers to a portion of the Radio Frequency (RF) spectrum. A microwave oven is only called such because it makes use of the heating effect (or more correctly the excitation of water molecules at their resonant frequency) caused by that particular portion of the RF spectrum. This heating effect only works in very close proximity to the source or at very high power levels so a microwave oven employs continuos high power analogue microwaves and restricts them within the oven so as to cause the food to undergo the heating effect. Non of this has anything to do with ionising radiation which is completely different as you stated.

If someone were foolish enough they could remove the door of a microwave oven, make a couple of simple modifications and it would become an analogue microwave transmitter causing a massive amount of RF pollution over a considerable geographic area - a jammer in fact. Would people in the surrounding area feel the heating effect? No, unless they stood right in front of the open oven it would simply become part of the background RF radiation (non ionising) The key word here is Analogue.

Modern Digital RF coms operate in the frequency range 800 MHz to approx. 2500 MHz. The microwave oven sits at 2450 MHz and a microwave transmission tower sits at 300 GHz. Quiet a frequency spread! The microwave oven heats water molecules by exciting them at their resonant frequency as earlier stated. The further one goes up or down the frequency spectrum away from this resonant frequency of water the more the heating effect diminishes almost as a log function so it can be seen that 2450 MHz is the key frequency for the heating effect. I am not saying the heating effect is not an issue outside of this frequency because it is. It is not however the key issue wrt health and digital RF transmissions. Bluetooth sits at 2400 - 2480 MHz and is one of the devices I never use - especially a Bluetooth headset!

The Non Heating effect is only just beginning to be understood and is thought to be linked to the digital nature of the RF emissions and the way devices 'burst' their transmission, this is a recent issue that has only been possible due to the development of high frequency switching technology. The old analogue sine wave has been replaced by a square wave who's energy goes from zero to rated output in a miniscule period of time, I tend to visualise it as a pneumatic jack hammer. This is not a natural phenomenon, the background RF radiation is broad spectrum but analogue in nature. This comparison is often brought up to discredit, most of the time in ignorance but by some typically in the industry, intentionally. More of this will come out over time but there is sufficient information out there now to know it is a real issue.

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The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

Post by 2cvandy » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:48 am

Well I've followed this thread from the beginning, and I'm no wiser.
I don't know if there are plans to fit smart meters in our area yet, I presume it's a national program, so I guess it will come.

I'll leave aside the Mw argument for now, even though that could well be the most important argument against these meters, if the world wide scientific community can't agree if a real threat exists or not, then may I humbly suggest that debate is not likely to be settled on a bike club forum?

And from a financial viewpoint?
If I let them fit one apparently my bills "may" increase (does anybody have any proof of this?).
But if I refuse the meter my bill definitely increases by 18 euro a month?

I can see the advantage for EDF, no more meter readers means a lower wage bill, but I'm less sure there's any advantage to the house holder.
Does any body really need to see their consumption in real time?
I should say here that I have no smart devices.
I do not ever feel the need to "control my heating from my phone".
That would in fact be pretty difficult as I don't have a smart phone (or an ipad), I do have a "thick" phone, a Sony Ericsson J220 for txt msg (which is all I need it for).
I know I'm being simplistic (or maybe I'm just simple) but in our house we switch things on when we need to use them and switch them off when we're done. How can knowing how much power we're using help to reduce our bills? We couldn't turn the stuff off before we've finished using it could we?
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Post by Jamstealer » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:54 am

But the effects of RF from antennas; Bluetooth, Wifi etc etc encountered on a daily basis, even by constant users of mobile phones, etc, are many orders of magnitude below any danger level.
Studies have been done time and time again, and no correlation between RF levels at modern background levels and health can be found.
Even those people who appear to have " RF hypersensitivity" have been examined in detail, exhaustively, and no correlation has been made.
BT/ wifi, etc have no effect whatsoever on health at the levels encountered on a daily basis.

Background radiation would have to increase by a magnitude of several hundred thousand to get anywhere near having any health effect.

If you believe that Bluetooth is dangerous, I would assume you would also never visit Cornwall, or Brittany, or fly in a plane?
The health effects of those activities are several orders of magnitude greater than the " danger " from RF radiation.



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The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

Post by guzzigui » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:07 am

:lol: :lol: You are conflating ionising and non-ionising radiation and natural and man made sources. Not really anything I can add ;)

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Post by Jamstealer » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:57 am

No I am not: I am pointing out that both the ionising and non- ionising levels are so minimal that they need to be increased by many orders of magnitude before they can have any effect whatsoever on health. ( I do know the difference)
The comment on natural sources is simply a comparison scenario; related to natural radiation; people worry about " nuclear radiation " yet happily spend hours on aeroplanes, or live in Cornwall, yet are receiving doses of background radiation. ( from a different source) yet are concerned about perceived effects of ionising and non-ionising RF radiation from their Bluetooth devices or wifi.
The danger from ground sourced radiation from living in Cornwall, is greater than from any effect of either ionising, or non-ionising RF background radiation from masts or phones or anything else in common usage.



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Post by Cornishman » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:58 am

It reminds me of a point that was made on the radio when they were discussing the effect of the Chernobyl fallout on farms in North Wales. When asked to put the radiation danger in real terms the scientist identified the levels as being similar to those experienced during a two week holiday in Cornwall.
Not that that in itself isn't worrying, both my parents died as a result cancers much younger than their parents who spent most or all of their lives elsewhere.
On the main point, my household electricity bills would benefit from having a smart meter, I have an electric Aga with AIMS as the base level of heating and knowing the real-time cost effect of running one Eco cycle compared to another would be worthwhile and might save me a few Euros a year.
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The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

Post by guzzigui » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:41 am

I know you know the difference JS. Your conflation in your last paragraph was intentional so as to try and paint a picture of irrational thinking.

If you had read carefully my belief is based on simple science; A microwave oven uses at a certain frequency to excite water, a bluetooth headset sits at near as damn it the same frequency as the microwave and is worn close to the head for long periods of time, the human body is composed of a large percentage of water. Fact.

I never talked about Cornwall, Brittany, Flights on Planes etc.

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Post by Jamstealer » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:34 pm

There was no conflation: just a comparison.
But as you will acknowledge yourself: heating ( excitation of water molecules) needs a certain level of energy; which you will find in a microwave oven, you won't find anywhere near enough energy in a BT headset to even approach a level where such effects would take place; in addition, BT and mobile phone " power" is often quoted, but crucially is is " conveniently forgotten" that both mobile phones and Bluetooth use spread spectrum frequency hopping: which means that even if they were at a level that could cause any molecular excitation, they do not stay on any single frequency long enough for any resonance to build up in the first place, so no heating ( or non heating) effect can build up.
( analogue phones were single frequency, which had to be more powerful - digital phones have a signal strength orders of magnitude lower.)
So the effect is utterly negligible.
Wifi is also a frequency hopping spread spectrum carrier too.
( frequency hopping spread spectrum is not only used to reduce power; it is essential to the pairing and logon security for wifi
And Bluetooth.



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The fabulous new 'Linky' electricity meters .....

Post by DaveR » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:57 pm

2cvandy wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:48 am
I know I'm being simplistic (or maybe I'm just simple) but in our house we switch things on when we need to use them and switch them off when we're done. How can knowing how much power we're using help to reduce our bills?
There is considerable evidence that when homes are provided with real-time self-monitoring devices for power consumption those homes on average tend to reduce their consumption. Lots of work has been done on autonomy and self-determination theory as they are applied by domestic energy users.* This is because many home-owners DO leave things switched on or on stand-by when they don't need to, leave lights on in rooms they are not using, heat their houses to T-shirt wearing levels, run heating with windows open etc etc etc... And that when they have more instant control over the process of energy consumption (e.g. more information) they tend to change their behaviour.

Clearly you're an exception Andy because you are already well aware of what you are using and when you are using it - and that's good. There will be many others like you for whom a meter would not change their behaviour. The meters aren't really targeted at you. But there are enough energy 'abusers' (if that's the right word) to justify the roll-out. They work particularly well at persuading those who don't give a jot about the environment but who do care about the cost of their electricity bills to cut back on unnecessary energy use. Of course attention to the latter creates less damage to the former anyway.

Actually once you have real-time monitoring you do take notice of it and even someone semi-obsessed with energy saving like me can use the meters to research and implement small ways of doing even better.

*for example: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 0914001682

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